April 25th, 2012 at 2:46 pm

Kyle said,

Lucky,

It’s interesting. My experience with this started in 2011. I definitely noticed it at SFO first (my home airport)-and it wasn’t occurring anywhere else. Then suddenly at JFK, and now at MIA, ORD, et al.

Wonder what’s up with it.

I did see a guy in the security lane once say “My name is on my boarding pass and ID”…(Now, I’m always *Thinking* that ) – but the agent responded “Verbally, please sir” and he obliged.

I’ve done searches on it and haven’t been able to find anything other than pax reports.

April 25th, 2012 at 2:53 pm

JP said,

It isn’t your right to fly. You can be denied entrance for any non-discriminatory reason they want.

April 25th, 2012 at 2:56 pm

PointsCashMiles said,

I wonder what the response would be if you gave them a different name from and then explained “But it’s not pronounced the way it’s spelled”

April 25th, 2012 at 3:04 pm

Kris Ziel said,

I don’t think TSA does anything at SFO, yet you keep bashing the TSA for SFO experiences.

April 25th, 2012 at 3:06 pm

JP2 said,

One of my biggest reasons with giving the name is in this country you have the right to remain silent. I’m not a lawyer, but I can’t believe it’s legal for TSA to insist that you say your last name. If I don’t have to speak when interacting with a police officer why should I have to when speaking to TSA who don’t have any police powers? Especially since TSA is just security theater anyway.

April 25th, 2012 at 3:09 pm

Frank said,

Lucky, at times when I comment here I am somewhat facetious. However, your complaints about the TSA are truly naive and display the worst side of your personality. With regards to your reasons for opposing saying your name, are you a security expert? Do you have experience in this field? If not – how do you know it adds zero security and it a waste of time and resources? Is it such an invasion of privacy to say your name that it burdens you so?

I pray for the safety of every person flying, and you are included in those prayers. Perhaps you were too young for the tragedy of 9/11 to truly sink in, but those of us who are older understood that life changed. It is a sad thought, but there are people who would attempt to blow up a plane or hijack it for reasons only they know.

I would MUCH rather have a TSA that is perhaps slightly too invasive or burdensome to navigate than a TSA that is just slightly too lax.

April 25th, 2012 at 3:12 pm

Michael said,

Who’s that Frank??

April 25th, 2012 at 3:15 pm

JP2 said,

@lucky

Oh we can tell it’s that Frank for sure.

April 25th, 2012 at 3:22 pm

Gene said,

@Ben — Are Frank and JOSH the same person?

April 25th, 2012 at 3:40 pm

JP said,

@JP2 – You understand that you have the RIGHT to remain silent. You don’t have the RIGHT to board an airplane. You can remain silent as long as you want, just dont’ expect to get through airport security

April 25th, 2012 at 3:45 pm

CodeAdam10 said,

On that note, what “right” does my bank has asking me to verbally verify my name, address, and mother’s maiden name every time I call them? I’m already calling from my billing telephone number, I already entered my darn 16-digit card number during the automated commands … so what gives!? I guess the list can go on, and on, and on. Seriously though, lucky, this is probably the most random blog post I’ve read from you.

April 25th, 2012 at 4:04 pm

Biggles209 said,

@7 Kris is correct. Security at SFO is not TSA. It’s a private company under contract with TSA. I much prefer TSA – at least I know what to expect. I’ve been through SFO when lines were backed up, with a lane closed, yet there were six of the clowns joking around in the corner of the screening area.

April 25th, 2012 at 4:12 pm

fosij said,

More trolls. Why bother? It takes one second. Who cares?

April 25th, 2012 at 4:16 pm

MS said,

Frank, are you one of those parents those watches with a patriotic smile on his face as their child is groped in public? Just curious if you plan on living in fear for the rest of your life…

April 25th, 2012 at 4:29 pm

Simon said,

@Frank: There’s no doubt Lucky grasps the tragedy of 9/11. Your feeble attempt to support your argument by discrediting Lucky does more to damn you than him. Your constant gutless quivering is repulsive.

April 25th, 2012 at 4:45 pm

Ann said,

Not sure about the specifics,but I assume that failure to comply with a TSA’s officer’s reasonable request is probably enough to deny you access, and asking people to verify their name is clearly not going to be declared unconsitutional.

I agree with Frank, though, in that you just seem like a jerk when dealing with the TSA. They’re just trying to do their jobs. If you’re getting the treatment at two different airports, it’s probably mandated for them. If you have a problem with the TSA, write to your Congresmen or the Dept. of Homeland Security. Giving TSAs a hard time is as ineffective as complaining to a cashier about high prices or punching a busboy because your steak wasn’t cooked right.

April 25th, 2012 at 4:53 pm

Ann said,

@JP2-the right to remain silent is the right against self-incrimination. Simply stating your name in and of itself is never going to be self-incrimination. Beyond that, flying is a privilege, not a right. And beyond even that, pretty much all of our constitutional rights can and will be set aside for national security in certain circumstances.
And inasmuchas giving your name is self-incrimination, not verifying your name is a national security threat.

April 25th, 2012 at 5:13 pm

Simon said,

@CodeAdam10: Your bank does not have a right to ask you those questions. You give them authorization to do so per your banking terms and conditions. But, how is this relevant? It’s clear what value verifying information offers. It authenticates a transaction in a measurable manner. A negative response results in a decline.

Lucky points out that without a BDO present, a TSO asking you to verify your name has no deterministic outcome. A negative or ambiguous response does not reliably result in an escalation and/or decline action. And, a TSO interpreting an unfamiliar name creates an element of volatility in detecting failed responses. So, if the purpose is behavior detection, it collapses without a BDO. And if the purpose is to verify information, an unacceptably exploitable amount of error exists. Of course, all of this assumes a nefarious individual is so ill-prepared that they haven’t become intimately familiar with the identity they are traveling under.

At best, the process may discover the most stupid of terrorists and those who don’t speak English, or can’t speak, and at worst, it creates noise that distracts from actual security.

Aviation safety is improved by ridiculing theater and celebrating actual security. Citizens of the US are paying a substantial amount of money for the TSA. Anyone who supports the betterment of the US will stop mindlessly going with the flow and instead demand that the government do better. And, that includes pointing out processes that have no clear positive argument for their cost and existence.

April 25th, 2012 at 5:22 pm

Cedarglen said,

I think this protest stuff is holding up the line. If you want to fly, move it along please. Believe it or not, YOU are NOT the only one who needs to get down to gate 998.

April 25th, 2012 at 5:27 pm

Simon said,

@Ann: You wrote

“Simply stating your name in and of itself is never going to be self-incrimination. … And inasmuchas giving your name is self-incrimination, not verifying your name is a national security threat.”

You contradicted yourself. Was that intentional?

April 25th, 2012 at 5:31 pm

Simon said,

@Cedarglen: A point to consider, but, in real-world practice, it doesn’t hold up the line for any significant duration. If you’re cutting it that close, you need to arrive earlier.

April 25th, 2012 at 5:35 pm

Simon said,

@Corey: And for those who don’t speak English or are mute, let’s ask another question. Do you want to fly today?

April 25th, 2012 at 5:49 pm

Andy said,

@Frank: your emotion affects your “argument”. I don’t see you use any facts to support. Your feeling based on the 9/11 event and toward the TSA policy don’t have much weight when making a sound decision.

I used to work for the government and I know for a fact that all of these multi security layers are not effective as you think it should. the biggest weakness of any security system is human factor and as long as TSA doesn’t fix this, you will hear more guns pass through security

April 25th, 2012 at 6:30 pm

Mark said,

The relevant rule can be found at 49 CFR 1540.107 and 40 CFR 1560. It appears that providing written identification containing your name, date of birth and gender is sufficient to meet the requirements of the regulation.

-=-=-

49 CFR § 1540.107 Submission to screening and inspection.

(a) No individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft without submitting to the screening and inspection of his or her person and accessible property in accordance with the procedures being applied to control access to that area or aircraft under this subchapter.

(b) An individual must provide his or her full name, as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, date of birth, and gender when—

(1) The individual, or a person on the individual’s behalf, makes a reservation for a covered flight, as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, or

(2) The individual makes a request for authorization to enter a sterile area.

(c) An individual may not enter a sterile area or board an aircraft if the individual does not present a verifying identity document as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, when requested for purposes of watch list matching under §1560.105(c), unless otherwise authorized by TSA on a case-by-case basis.

[73 FR 64061, Oct. 28, 2008]

April 25th, 2012 at 7:01 pm

troy said,

I hate this phenomenon almost more than any other TSA policy currently. For those posters here who believe that the concept of speaking your name out loud somehow increase security – please explain how? You can’t, because it doesn’t. It’s simply a penalty that poorly performing checkpoints have to go through to remind them to check names more closely. It’s absolutely backwards.

In any case – I’ve only run into this a few times. I simply pronounce my firm name (Troy) as “T-Roy” and completely mangle my last name. Really annoys the TSA staff and makes me laugh, so its a win win.

April 25th, 2012 at 7:04 pm

Kris Ziel said,

They don’t punish you for not saying your name, they just don’t have to give you the privilege of entering the sterile area. Look at Mark’s post with the exact text, in no uncertain terms it says that a passenger must provide name (among other things) to enter the sterile area.

April 25th, 2012 at 7:27 pm

Rob said,

My MO is to provide the name, while pointing out that it is right there on the ID. All subsequent irrelevant questions get my response: I’d rather not say. I am never asked why I’d rather not say – they usually just move to the next question or sometimes engage me in a little staring contest. If they ask about my belongings I usually give an answer, as that might be remotely relevant to their raison d’etre. Being asked about the purpose and length of my visit – I would rather not answer.

April 25th, 2012 at 7:37 pm

Mike said,

Damn yankees are losing.

April 25th, 2012 at 9:13 pm

Ben said,

It is important to point out one exception to the 4th Amendment…the border search exception. This is a big deal and the courts grant a good deal of latitude.

April 25th, 2012 at 11:02 pm

Ron said,

Shmulik (way back up at #16) — when Israeli security ask if you speak Hebrew and when/where you learned it, this is just a thinly veiled attempt at determining whether a passenger is Jewish. Plain and simple profiling, the underlying assumption being that Jewish persons pose less of a risk to aviation to and from Israel. Asking directly is illegal in some places and considered offensive in many others, hence the indirect approach.

This makes for some interesting conversations with passengers whose answers to the standard set do not unambiguously reveal the desired information (e.g. an American who learned Hebrew in college, which is consistent with both a Jewish and non-Jewish profile). I know people whose standard response to “Do you speak Hebrew?” is “Yes, but I’m not Jewish” — cuts through some questions and makes the interview go faster…

As for the assertion that “these folks are professionals”, well, I’ve encountered my share of newbie/trainee Israeli security personnel. The best thing about those is that they usually know to call for a supervisor rather quickly.

April 26th, 2012 at 12:42 am

Frank said,

To whoever tried to one-up me by saying they used to work for the government – you’re talking to an Army veteran here.

As for the rest of you – here is what I propose. Tell me if you agree (though this would never happen so it is purely hypothetical). How about we have two airports per city – one with every TSA measure currently in place, and one where they adjusted their standards to meet Lucky’s complaints. Which one would you travel through?

April 26th, 2012 at 2:08 am

Andy Bluebear said,

“So does anyone know what the law actually is?”

Funny how so many people missed that, and would rather straddle their high horse and comment their opinion about the TSA, does security work, is Lucky acting like a brat, due process and Miranda Rights (huh?), etc.

According to Mark (post #47), it seems the TSA can prevent you from entering if you refuse to show an ID, but it doesn’t say anything about them being able to (legally) deny you entry should you refuse to say your name out loud. Then again, it might just be your luck that you end up with some idiot who wants to abuse his power and act like he has the biggest testicles in the world and prevent you from entering if you don’t say your name. But again, it doesn’t seem like there is anything the TSA can do, legally, if you don’t say your name out loud.

April 26th, 2012 at 7:18 am

Dan said,

All the TSA bashing on this blog does is to encourage more TSA bashing. Agree or disagree, enough already.

April 26th, 2012 at 8:54 am

beachfan said,

The idea that one needs to be a behavorial expert to detect suspicious behavior is unsound. I don’t believe customs officers get the type of training that Israeli security staff get, yet they use behavioral based training.

The idea is pretty simple, have them speak, see if they start acting funny. If you aren’t willing to say your name, what are you to say. Sure, it isn’t incredibly
effective, but given the agent is there, the marginal cost is zero.

Just curious, do you feel similarly about people asking you about the wine list as you do about TSA? I see your response to requests to show the wine list now has you showing a picture of the cover, but not the wine. Seems like the games you like to play with TSA.

April 26th, 2012 at 9:06 am

JetAway said,

Just guessing, but I imagine they are asking pax to say their names to see if they “know” them. For example, if someone had difficulty pronouncing Lucky’s last name it would raise questions as to whether that was really “Lucky.” And if it isn’t Lucky, who is it and why do the have his ID?

April 26th, 2012 at 9:24 am

Chas said,

Back OT- I’ve never said the name on my ID at a say-your-name station. Haven’t been stopped once.

April 26th, 2012 at 10:12 am

Andrew B said,

People get really heated up about this! I’ve gotten the impression from reading Lucky’s posts that he and I have different views on the TSA…but I don’t think posting a mean comment will change his mind.

I’m a lawyer, but my field is tax law, so not an expert on this. But those regs from D look like they’re on point. If the term “provide” is not defined in the regs (I doubt it is), the court will define it broadly, with significant deference given to the interpretation of the agency that wrote the regs.

April 26th, 2012 at 3:17 pm

chasgoose said,

Congress gave pretty broad authority to the TSA to enact rules and policies to promote airline safety. The “law” above was a regulation that the TSA created, not Congress itself, but it’s highly unlikely to be struck down by a court. Typically agencies are given deference to interpret Congress’s statute and make rules like that however they see fit so long as its a reasonable interpretation of the statute (and it doesn’t have to be the MOST reasonable, i.e. someone can always come up with a reason why asking your name would protect national security even if its not the best one) and so long as they didn’t adopt the regulation in an “arbitrary and capricious” manner. Basically that would mean that they didn’t consider all the research on the issue and explain why they chose that interpretation and I’m sure there was plenty of support for their position (arbitrary and capricious usually has to be something pretty severe like if the agency could either modify or rescind a regulation and they rescind without explaining why its better than just modify or if they ignore a comment made by an interested party when they post the rule for notice-and-comment before enacting it).

You could theoretically challenge the constitutionality of the TSA regulations with a due process argument, but that wouldn’t be very likely to succeed either. Typically courts apply a balancing test weighing the harms to private interest with the government need and the risk of error. The government need here is national security and the private interest is maybe missing your flight for not getting access to the secure zone (maybe if you were imprisoned for a significant length of time or added to a No-Fly List, but the regulation only denies access to the secure zone). Almost all courts will see the government interest as higher and you would lose.

April 27th, 2012 at 1:52 am

chasgoose said,

And if the TSA says that not saying your name when asked is something that would justify denying you entry into the secure zone, then they can legally deny you entry into the secure zone.

Unfortunately it doesn’t matter whether it’s a behavior modification technique or not. If the agency can make some remotely reasonable argument why such a regulation would protect national security, then all courts will give that regulation deference.

I agree with the poster above who suggested that you visit Ben Gurion airport. I think it would be cool to see an El Al report (I think some of their 747′s are ex-SQ with the same F seats) and also you might see that the TSA isn’t THAT bad, or at least not as bad as it could be…

April 27th, 2012 at 8:51 am

David B. said,

Ianal but simply put, you are not required to state your name and cannot be denied entry to the secure area if you do and you are not interfering with the screening process-no matter what the TSA says.

Simply show them a copy of this:

CFR 1540.107
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/1540.107

(a) No individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft without submitting to the screening and inspection of his or her person and accessible property in accordance with the procedures being applied to control access to that area or aircraft under this section

We do the above by presenting our I/D and BP

And specifically noted in subsection b1 and c

(b) An individual must provide his or her full name, as defined in § 1560.3 of this chapter, date of birth, and gender when

(1) The individual, or a person on the individual’s behalf, makes a reservation for a covered flight, as defined in § 1560.3 of this chapter, or
(2) The individual makes a request for authorization to enter a sterile area.

We do the above by presenting our I/D and BP

(c) An individual may not enter a sterile area or board an aircraft if the individual does not present a verifying identity document as defined in § 1560.3 of this chapter

And CFR 1560.3 defines a “Verifying Identity Document as

Verifying Identity Document means one of the following documents:
(1) An unexpired passport issued by a foreign government.
(2) An unexpired document issued by a U.S. Federal, State, or tribal government that includes the following information for the individual:
(i) Full name.
(ii) Date of birth.
(iii) Photograph.

So with all of that, there is nothing that says one is required to state their name however ymmv “depending on the TSO you encounter”

May 2nd, 2012 at 5:47 am

John said,

My friend from overseas, Igotta Bomminmypants, has been having a lot of trouble getting through TSA lately.

September 24th, 2012 at 11:48 pm

Ricarde said,

Stone, I’m with you. Just got back from a lovely break down in Carmel, Monterey. I had to fly home from SFO (home is PDX). The TSA there are like a mix between little schoolboy brats and wannabee army bullies, and they even failed at that with me. The one douche (I cannot keep my integrity and call them anything grand like ‘agent’) asked me to step over towards some scanning machine. And turn my back on all my property in the trays? Right. Soon I was surrounded by 3 of them, but I knew they were grasping when they told me to calm down. Needless to say, I was the calm one while they were over-reacting and holding an inquest over why I wouldn’t move. I’d had an experience in Chicago when a TSA man asked me to go to a scanning machine thing and I did so ultra-obediently like a sheepdog. When he said I was ok to go, I turned around to get my stuff out the trays and my cash had gone. He made a token effort to find out how and then shrugged and said I shouldn’t have taken my eyes off it or left it in the trays. So now in SFO, I’m applying the instruction to the letter and the lessons learned from that experience. One of the 3 amigos picks up one of the trays and offers to move it and the others over to a shelf where I will still see it while being scanned. Problem solved, except I didn’t give anyone permission to lift a tray containing my property and the attitude of the first douche had already done the damage. He yelled about 5 times don’t touch anything in the trays. Like I’m a child? Oh sorry, you’re the child and you think everyone else is like you. Tossers Society of America. SFO and Chicago – both like to yell a lot and come over all sergeant-major. TSA – how else were the Klan going to covertly spread their evil throughout the entire country?